JohnJohn2 and SrMOJ (I'm curious about what that means) left a series of posts on the Pope ... abolish the motu proprio Summorum Pontificum article and I figured I would put them here in order to post my thoughts.
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Original Posts with Tradical's thoughts in Red.
Were it only that simple.
Have a look at the Church Teaching on the Four Marks.
https://tradicat.blogspot.com/2014/05/the-four-marks-of-church-of-christ.html
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What you say in the 2014 article, "The Four Marks", describes the pre-Vatican II, Council of Trent Church. The Bible describes that same Church and in such a way that it excludes all pretenders. The Bible is the "inerrant Word of God" inspired by the Holy Spirit. The Council of Vatican II is an entirely different Church. Tradical: I've seen this argumentation before and find is to be dangerous as it leads to all sorts of errors.
With the tossing out of the original schemas which had continuity with the Church dating back all the way to Christ, and the new schemas which were the hermeneutics of a new gospel with no continuity with the Deposit of the Faith made the result of Vatican II a new Church standing on its own. Thus we see and hear Francis saying that if you are not with Vatican II, then you are not with "The Church". Is this a formal schism declared by Francis on top of the other schisms... with the Bible, the Catechism, the Ten Commandments, etc?!
Francis is also telling us that Jesus was not merciful enough, and so he is abrogating and rewriting St. Matthew 19:1~12 for his (Francis') church under "his" magisterium which apparently supercedes Christ's Magisterium. He is saying with his accord at Abu Dhabi that he is claiming the power to change the First Commandment that was given from God's Mouth to Moses' ear. These are only two examples of how that Church is not the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and therefore is under anathema.
In 2Corinthians 6:14~18, St. Paul tells us in no uncertain terms:
(V14) "Bear not the yoke with unbelievers." (Can we possibly imagine that someone who nullifies the direct teaching of Jesus Christ, as in St. Matthew 19 and Amoris laetitia, and who nullifies the "Word of God" expressed for the Father by Jesus, His Word, to Moses in the First Commandment about strange gods, be the legitimate ruler of the Church that Christ established? He is rather a usurper "trying to climb up another way".)
"... For what participation hath justice with injustice? Or what fellowship hath light with darkness?
(V15) "And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath the faithful with the unbeliever?
(V16) "And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols" (Pachamama)?...
(V17) "Wherefore, go out from among them," (as Archbishop Lefebvre did) "and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing:
(V18) "And I will receive you; and I will be a Father to you; and you shall be My sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty." (Did He say we needed a Pope to come to Him? Did He abandon us for not having one temporarily?)
Is the reference of the "unclean thing" referring to a church under anathema and a "Pope" who is adding insult to injury.
See, it is that simple. I choose sanctity over sin.
Will you?
Tradical:Sometimes a situation is more complex and it is necessary to carefully study the principles instead of proof-texts. Pope Francis is objectively a bad pope, but we don't get to set aside Catholic Teaching because of this situation.
I found your site by accident looking for another site. Being a traditional myself I certainly appreciate Mr. "JohnJohnii" and his uncomplicated way of defending what I recognize the SSPX to be: the Remnant Church.... A piece of the original.
Mr. Tradical, you may have gotten yourself so bogged down in the intellectual argumentation using the documents of the Council of Trent and Vatican I to defend the post Vatican II Church, that you completely missed the simplicity of the Truth of God, which is contained in those documents, which are meant to explain what is in the Scriptures. That is a Church created by God and not by man. The Council of Trent vs Vatican II. More importantly, you have missed the point that the Church you are describing is not the Church visible in Rome. You are describing the pre-Vatican II Church that has been preserved in the SSPX.Tradical: Simplicity does not equal correct. I don't make excuses for difficult situations, I see Catholic Principles by which to understand them.
There is only One Truth and only One True Church. The Church in Rome kept the externals, gutted the core and put up shop with a poor facsimile which lacks the soul of the Holy Spirit guided Church of Jesus Christ. Paul VI declared that we now have the Church of man.
(Continued....)
Reply(Continued...)
JohnJohnii, I found your attempt to clarify through God's inerrant Word how simple it is to identify, for those looking for it, the Church He established. It is the remnant which Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishop de Castro Mayer refused to compromise. God can work with a small piece. He did that with Noe and He told Moses that He could start a whole new nation starting with just him. If you look at Ezechiel 9, you will find God's remnant described:
(V4) "And the Lord said to him: go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem (Rome): and mark Thau upon the foreheads of the men that sigh, and mourn for all the abominations that are committed in the midst thereof.
(V5) "And to the others He said in my hearing: Go ye after him through the city, and strike: let not your eyes spare, nor be ye moved with pity.
(V6) "Utterly destroy old and young, maidens, children and women: but upon whomsoever you shall see Thau, kill him not, and begin ye at My sanctuary. So they began at the ancient men who were before the house.
(V8) "And the slaughter being ended I was left: and I fell upon my face, and crying, I said: Alas, alas, alas, O Lord God wilt Thou destroy all the remnant of Israel, by pouring out Thy fury upon Jerusalem(/Rome)?
(V9) "And He said to me: the iniquity of the house of Israel and of Juda, is exceeding great, and the land is filled with blood, and the city (Rome) is filled with perverseness: for they have said: The Lord hath forsaken the earth, and the Lord seeth not.
(V10) "Therefore neither shall My eyes spare, nor will I have pity: I will requite their way upon their head."
St. Paul is very clear in several letters in how the true believer is to conduct himself and how to avoid those that have separated themselves from the Truth. The Triune Godhead is the Head of the Church no matter who is the "visible head". God can never condone sin. As St. Paul says in Galatians 1:6-10:
(V6) "I wonder that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ, unto another gospel.
(V7) "Which is not another, only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
(V8) "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.
(V9) "As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.
(V10) "For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? If I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ."
Vatican II is another gospel.
Going against such a majority of "professed Catholics" as Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishop de Castro Mayer did was a tremendous act of Faith and subsequent persecution.
When the Scriptures speak so plainly as they do in the above quotes, there is no need for someone to follow after and try to tell us in a contrary, intellectual double speak (VII).
Vatican II was definitely a Pied Piper and what controls that Church is gaining momentum and definitely heading for the edge of the cliff.Tradical: Yet, I remain unconvinced. Quoting scripture to justify heresy is not a good way to resolve the crisis of the Catholic Church.
ReplyContinued...)
Reply
Tradical: Oops this looks like a repeat.
JohnJohnii, I found your attempt to clarify through God's inerrant Word how simple it is to identify, for those looking for it, the Church He established. It is the remnant which Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishop de Castro Mayer refused to compromise. God can work with a small piece. He did that with Noe and He told Moses that He could start a whole new nation starting with just him. If you look at Ezechiel 9, you will find God's remnant described:
(V4) "And the Lord said to him: go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem (Rome): and mark Thau upon the foreheads of the men that sigh, and mourn for all the abominations that are committed in the midst thereof.
(V5) "And to the others He said in my hearing: Go ye after him through the city, and strike: let not your eyes spare, nor be ye moved with pity.
(V6) "Utterly destroy old and young, maidens, children and women: but upon whomsoever you shall see Thau, kill him not, and begin ye at My sanctuary. So they began at the ancient men who were before the house.
(V8) "And the slaughter being ended I was left: and I fell upon my face, and crying, I said: Alas, alas, alas, O Lord God wilt Thou destroy all the remnant of Israel, by pouring out Thy fury upon Jerusalem(/Rome)?
(V9) "And He said to me: the iniquity of the house of Israel and of Juda, is exceeding great, and the land is filled with blood, and the city (Rome) is filled with perverseness: for they have said: The Lord hath forsaken the earth, and the Lord seeth not.
(V10) "Therefore neither shall My eyes spare, nor will I have pity: I will requite their way upon their head."
St. Paul is very clear in several letters in how the true believer is to conduct himself and how to avoid those that have separated themselves from the Truth. The Triune Godhead is the Head of the Church no matter who is the "visible head". God can never condone sin. As St. Paul says in Galatians 1:6-10:
(V6) "I wonder that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ, unto another gospel.
(V7) "Which is not another, only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
(V8) "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.
(V9) "As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.
(V10) "For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? If I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ."
Vatican II is another gospel.
Going against such a majority of "professed Catholics" as Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishop de Castro Mayer did was a tremendous act of Faith and subsequent persecution.
When the Scriptures speak so plainly as they do in the above quotes, there is no need for someone to follow after and try to tell us in a contrary, intellectual double speak (VII).
Vatican II was definitely a Pied Piper and what controls that Church is gaining momentum and definitely heading for the edge of the cliff.Your "mission statement":
"Seeking A Way Forward: A Catholic Traditionalist's Thoughts and Reflections on ways to help the Church emerge from this crisis of Faith"...
and the direction you take in your articles and comments have me wondering.
Why are you going to the SSPX? Do you not have your hand on the plough all the while looking longingly back?
Did you not go to the SSPX because they have the answers and where there is not that "crisis of Faith". You are now on high, safe ground yet you stay close to the edge looking down.
You call yourself "traditional" and the SSPX has 2021 years of tradition.Tradical: I would prefer the analogy of being in crows-nest of a ship looking down at other sstruggling in the water. To them I attempt to throw a lifeline and help them.
If we compare this to the now 55+ years that the Novus Ordo Church has been in existence, do they/you even know what it means to be traditional as compared to the SSPX? If truly your goal is to love and worship God in the traditional Catholic way, you have already arrived at the destination most conducive to reaching your goal.Tradical: Our responsibilty includes others that God puts around us.
Traditional Catholics like myself have been taught and realize that the indelible mark on our souls through our Baptisms indicates that we have been consecrated and made sacred to God Who has called us to become Saints. As my old Baltimore Catechism said: "Why did God make you?"
Answer: "God made me to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world so that I can be with Him in the next."
Tradical: It is important to understand what it means to know,love and serve God. I have seen a number of SSPX faithful go the way of the resistance, sedevacantists and abandon the faith entirely. I am convinced that without a well developed understanding of the principles and a strong spiritual life - we will follow the path of error worse than the modernists.
Yes, God is simple!
With its coffers already full of the riches that God has endowed to HIS Church in the last 2021 years, you have already a super abundance of the legacy of Graces and Tradition available to you at the SSPX.
Where do you want to go from there?!
If your tradition is not from experience, being raised in a Novus Ordo environment, the only traditions you know are what you read. Your heart has been conditioned in the Church of Vatican II, and you seem to be trying to make it fit with a Church built on Tradition. You're going in the right direction being with the SSPX. Francis and his church are going in the opposite direction and that Church, not Christ's Church, that church, has been going in that same wrong direction since its inception.
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The Protestants did not use the Catholic Church or its Bible or its worship as a template to build on. They simply threw everything out that was Catholic. Francis and company have already outdone them!
What I'm saying to you, my dear brother, is in all Christian charity. I'm taking you at your word. And as a 71 year old Catholic from birth telling you "go straight ahead". You are already on the right path to the goal that you say that you have. Help your poor brothers and sisters who have lost their way in quagmire of that Novus Ordo Church. Use that intellect and that knowledge that you have to draw them to the Truth. Take a page from St. Theresa of Avila and return to the Primitive Rule.Tradical: I am more than a little lost as to what you are trying to tell me and the nature of your criticism.
In this particular case, backward in time is forward to eternity!
The Carmelites of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church under the guidance of St. Theresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross set the stage and did exactly as your mission statement for the Church in their day. St. Pius V with the Council of Trent did the very same thing in his day in response to the novelties of the Reformation which "deformed" rather than "reformed".
Something I have heard several times recently is an old saying: "If you're going through Hell, keep going."
Believe it or not, you've already been through the worst of it prior to re-finding the Primitive Rule of the worship of Jesus Christ in coming to the SSPX. Don't go it alone. And we traditional Catholics also know that our Baptism calls upon us to approach the Judgement Seat hand in hand with those that we plucked out of the fire and carried along with us to our heavenly home.
Invite them as I and the SSPX am now inviting you. Let's do it together. You are in my prayers.Tradical: Thank you for your prayers. However, the thought that the SSPX IS the Catholic Church contradicts the teaching of the Catholic Church . There is no going around it - it is invalid to attempt to save the Church by setting aside inconvenient truths of that same Church.
Quo Primum was promulgated by the very same Church that Jesus Christ, Himself, established. Further, the Council of Trent was promulgated by Pope St. Pius V and was promulgated to absolutely show it as the True One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of ALL TIMES; and to establish the norms for the Mass, the Sacraments, and the teachings of that One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church for ALL TIME. It was in complete agreement with Christ's Church as He established It and as It has organically grown from Its Apostles to today. It had withstood the tests of nearly 500 years as the benchmark of Catholicism.
ReplyOn the other hand, Vatican II is the church forewarned and foretold by St. Paul in his letter to the Galatians as expressed in chapter 1 verses 6~12. In other words, it is not the Gospel of the True Church, and certainly not the Gospel of Trent. It absolutely has no power or jurisdiction or authority over the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church which Christ established as the Apostles, the Fathers of the Church, or the Doctors of the Church understood to have come from the Blood and Water that flowed from Jesus Christ's pierced Heart on Calvary. It is a church, by St. Paul's declaration, "... I indeed, absent in body, but present in spirit, have already judged, as though I were present, ..." (1Corinthians 5:3). It is a church according to St. Paul in Galatians 1:9, that by his definition, he has declared to be under "anathema". Tradical:The critical point is that the Catholic Church can't "NOT" exist. Therefore the four makrs have to exist somewhere. It is dogma that there will be a pope until the end of the world. Also the Pope is linked to the "Oneness" of the Church.
All of the traditions which have been so painstakingly grown organically in the fertile soil of Christ's teachings are exactly what St. Paul spoke of in 2Thessalonians 2:14:
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle."
This is the authority from which the SSPX speaks.
The SSPX does not therefore need the approbation of a church, that according to St. Paul, is under anathema. Between Jesus Christ and the unbroken line in the Apostolic Succession and St. Paul, by his teachings which he received from Jesus Christ, it is NOT anywhere in the purview of the Novus Ordo Church to do anything for the SSPX, but rather for the Novus Ordo Church to seek readmission to the One True Church through the SSPX. Tradical: Hence my question about the Four Marks.
Y'all have the cart before the horse! Apostasy/anathema does not drive the Church, but rather the Grace of God, the teachings of Jesus Christ, and power of the Holy Spirit are the Firm Foundation of our beliefs and practices. It is not up to the SSPX to ask for permission, but rather for the Novus Ordo Church to ask for forgiveness.
That church in Rome and its bastardization of the Catholic Church is in no way, shape, manner or form the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ.
As the Angel "come down from Heaven" in Apocalypse 18:1 says in Apocalypse 18:4,5:
(V4) "Go out from her, My people; that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
(V5) "For her sins have reached unto Heaven, and the Lord hath remembered her iniquities."