Cyncial Resistors 2c - Examination of objections

JMJ

After that exposition, I think we're ready to have a look at some of Gerard's original objections, prior to diving into his responses to my 'unpacking' of his thoughts.

Gerard's original objections can be summarized as:

Angel doesn't give Francisco and Jacinta the Holy Eucharist in the form of bread, because they haven't yet received their first Holy Communion.

Tradical: This is consistent with the Church Law on sacramental communion.

genderless, non-ordained "extraordinary minister of Holy Communion" then gives these children their First Holy Communion (without first Penance) and he gives it to them in the form of Wine????

Tradical: As noted Angels have given communion before, this is documented in the lives of the Saints. First penance is related to the Church Law on reception of the sacraments. This was not a sacramental communion.

without the consent or knowledge of the parents or Godparents if need be?

Tradical: I find this absurd. God has chosen these children to see the Blessed Virigin Mary and He should ask permission of their parents? Me thinks he doth protest too much!

kids have scruples and doubts a minute after the "Angel" departs?

Tradical: In the account that I read it seemed to be confusion or lack of understanding rather than scruples.

All to teach a small minority of Catholics a hundred years later that Latin Rite Catholics should not do what Latin Rite Catholics did centuries before and intinction is out the door for Latin Rite Catholics anyway? (what was sacred then is not sacred now?)

Tradical: I think this is a huge jump or inference. Looking at the highlighted section in the next post, I really can't see why he made the jump from the article to the rant about Eastern Rites etc.

Are we also to draw from this that Extraordinaray Ministers of Holy Communion are okay

Tradical: I likewise find this absurd since it is already established that an Angel can and has given Holy Communion. The link to the modern abuse is a non sequitor.

First Communion without First Penance preceding it is also okay?

Tradical: Discussed earlier.

parents and priests are not to be the authorities on when and how the Firsts of Communion

Tradical: Already addressed this issue of sacramental law in my hypothesis.

[first] Penance are [not] to be given?

Tradical: Ditto above.

if the parents and parish are to be involved, you simply override it by giving the kids the same consubstantial God in the form of Wine.

Tradical: First, according to the account, it wasn't under the form of wine. The accidents and substance were consistent. It looked like blood and it was substantially blood. To be exact: Christ's Blood.

If this had been Medjugorje, trads would have been all over these problems in the narrative.

Tradical: This isn't Medjugorje, this is Fatima that has been declared by the appropriate authorities to be worthy of belief. Further, if one stops and thinks about it rationally, one can arrive at a number of possible legitimate explanations that are consistent with the theology of the Catholic Church.

But if you put "Fatima" in front of it, the whole Deposit of Faith can be up for grabs and "understood through the lens of Fatima" the way John Paul II viewed the whole deposit of Faith "through Vatican II."

Tradical: Not certain if this is a valid objection.

Have the courage to hold onto the unadulterated doctrine of the Church and view Fatima as if you or you parents or grandparents had never heard about it, or if it was a modern apparition and the serious doctrinal problems with it will suddenly sprint into high relief.

Tradical: Gerard himself wrote that if this event was wrong then its all wrong. That logic works both ways. I would counter that if the Church Authority has not found any issues with what followed, then what preceded is equally devoid of error.

What I would like to note is the vehemence and type of language with which Gerard is writing. He appears to be emotionally charged.

That does bring up an important aspect of arguing with people.

Many people hold a strong set of beliefs, (as does Gerard) and this is not necessarily a bad thing. It only becomes a problem when these beliefs are contradicted by equally or stronger arguments (or reality). At that point it evokes an emotional / irrational response. In order to hold on to their beliefs in the face of an inconsistency, they continually seeks to protect their beliefs by raising a long series of objections. In short, they will imagine a variety of different elements that support their belief, while setting aside previous beliefs.

The degree to which some will go to protect a strongly held belief is quite amazing and requires much patience to help them to change their belief to align with what the Church actually teaches.

P^3

Morning and Evening and other sundry Prayers

+ JMJ Along the theme of P^3 (Prayer, Penance, Patience), and for my own reference ... here is a collection of Morning and Evening prayers from the Ideal Daily Missal along with some additional prayers. In this crisis of the Church, I do not think it is possible to do too much prayer, penance and have patience. P^3

SSPX and the Resistance - A Comparison Of Ecclesiology

Shining the light of Church Teaching on the doctrinal positions of the SSPX and the Resistance. Principles are guides used to aid in decision making. It stands to reason that bad principles will lead to bad decisions. The recent interactions between Rome and the SSPX has challenged a number of closely held cultural assumptions of people in both sides of the disagreement. This has resulted in cultural skirmishes in both Rome and the SSPX. Since it is the smaller of the two, the skirmishes have been more evident within the SSPX. The cultural fault-line that Bishop Fellay crossed appears to be linked to two points of Catholic Doctrine: Ecclesiology and Obedience. The cultural difference of view points is strong enough that it has resulted in the expulsion of a number of members. It should also be noted that some other priests expelled since the beginning of the latest interactions (starting in 2000) held the same view points and have joined with the l...

Comparision of the Tridentine, Cranmer and Novus Ordo Masses

+ JMJ I downloaded the comparison that was linked in the previous article on the mass (here) . ... a very good reference! P^3 From: Whispers of Restoration (available at this link) . CHARTING LITURGICAL CHANGE Comparing the 1962 Ordinary of the Roman Mass to changes made during the Anglican Schism; Compared in turn to changes adopted in the creation of Pope Paul VI’s Mass in 1969 The chart on the reverse is a concise comparison of certain ritual differences between three historical rites for the celebration of the Catholic Mass Vetus Ordo: “Old Order,” the Roman Rite of Mass as contained in the 1962 Missal, often referred to as the “Traditional Latin Mass.”The Ordinary of this Mass is that of Pope St. Pius V (1570) following the Council of Trent (1545-63), hence the occasional moniker “Tridentine Mass.” However, Trent only consolidated and codified the Roman Rite already in use at that time; its essential form dates to Pope St. Gregory the Great (+604), in whose time the R...

The Curious Case of Steve Skojec and the Dangers of Deep Diving into the Crisis Sub-Titled: The Failings of Others

+ JMJ It's been a while now since Steve Skojec sold 1P5 and abandoned the Catholic Faith. I've been a 'Trad' since 1982 and in those 40+ years I seen this death-spiral before with a similar end point. It seems that anyone who jumps into the fray unprepared for the enormous task of righting wrongs will, eventually, become discouraged by not the task but the people who surround them. I remember when Skojec complained of the treatment his family received from a traditional priest. This seems to have been the start of the end for him. So what can we learn from the likes of Steve Skojec, Michael Voris (maybe?), Louie Verrecchio, Gerry Matatix and other celebrity Catholics? Probably quite a lot about what not to do. First, don't burn out on the crisis? When you burn out, on work or anything else, little things assume a more greater importance than they are due. This is one of my 'canary in the coal mine' signals that I've been stretching myself too th...

What the heck is a congregation of "Pontifical Right"

+ JMJ In a discussion with a friend the question occurred to me that I didn't actually know was is involved in being a religious order of 'pontifical right'. I had a vague notion that this meant they reported to Rome as opposed to the local diocese. I'm also aware that, according to the accounts I have heard, the Archbishop received 'praise' and the written direction to incardinate priests directly into the SSPX. This is interesting because it implies that the SSPX priests were no longer required to incardinate in the local diocese but in the SSPX. This is something that belongs to an order of 'pontifical right'. Anyway here's some definitions: Di diritto pontificio is the Italian term for “of pontifical right” . It is given to the ecclesiastical institutions (the religious and secular institutes, societies of apostolic life) either created by the Holy See or approved by it with the formal decree, known by its Latin name, Decretu...

Tradicat

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