Review of "Responses to some questions" - Is the Church of Christ 'present and operative' outside of its bounds?

JMJ

I recently read a paper by Dr. Malloy, that referenced the 'Responses to Some Questions'(RSQ), that appears itself to be a follow-up to Dominus Iesus.

I disagreed with a number of elements. One of which was a reference to RSQ #2.

SECOND QUESTIONWhat is the meaning of the affirmation that the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church?
RESPONSEChrist “established here on earth” only one Church and instituted it as a “visible and spiritual community”[5], that from its beginning and throughout the centuries has always existed and will always exist, and in which alone are found all the elements that Christ himself instituted.[6] “This one Church of Christ, which we confess in the Creed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic […]. This Church, constituted and organised in this world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the successor of Peter and the Bishops in communion with him”.[7]In number 8 of the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium ‘subsistence’ means this perduring, historical continuity and the permanence of all the elements instituted by Christ in the Catholic Church[8], in which the Church of Christ is concretely found on this earth.
It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial Communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them.[9] Nevertheless, the word “subsists” can only be attributed to the Catholic Church alone precisely because it refers to the mark of unity that we profess in the symbols of the faith (I believe... in the “one” Church); and this “one” Church subsists in the Catholic Church.[10]

One difficulty that I have is found in the existence of a circular reference. [Correction: It isn't really a circular reference, but a reference that attempts to prove that the Second Vatican Council is ok, by referring to the Second Vatican Council] The RSQ#2 references Ut Unum Sint, which itself references the Second Vatican Council. This simply reaffirms that the 'subsist' is nothing more than a conciliar novelty that stands in contradiction to:

Mystici Corporis: "If we would define and describe this true Church of Jesus Christ - which is the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church"
Humani Generis: "Some say they are not bound by the doctrine, explained in Our Encyclical Letter of a few years ago, and based on the Sources of Revelation, which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing."

The Church of Christ is comprised of those who participate in Unity of Government, Unity of Faith and Unity of Worship. Those who are not in the three fold unity and have reached the age of reason, even if in Invincible ignorance, are not counted as 'actual members'.

None of the heretics / schismatics, by definition, fulfill this requirement. Hence the Dogma: Outside the Church there is no salvation - as reaffirmed by the Second Vatican Council.

THIRD QUESTIONWhy was the expression “subsists in” adopted instead of the simple word “is”?
RESPONSEThe use of this expression, which indicates the full identity of the Church of Christ with the Catholic Church, does not change the doctrine on the Church. Rather, it comes from and brings out more clearly the fact that there are “numerous elements of sanctification and of truth” which are found outside her structure, but which “as gifts properly belonging to the Church of Christ, impel towards Catholic Unity”.[11]“It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church”[12].

Here we have something very similar, the assertion that a branch separated from the Tree can carry the life of Grace.

In the 'old days' heresy and schism separated a person from the Church. Material heretics (baptized non-Catholics) who have reached the age of reason included.

Plain and simple?

If there is no Salvation outside the Church, then ... how does this jive? Are they actually members of the Church without fulfilling the requirements?

In my opinion the 'responses' raises more questions than it answers.

P^3
Prayer
Penance
Patience

Auctorem Fidei

Can the SSPX be right about the Novus Ordo? Revision: Feb 11, 2013 On another web forum, I was engaged in a rather heated discussion about the documents of Vatican II.

Morning and Evening and other sundry Prayers

+ JMJ Along the theme of P^3 (Prayer, Penance, Patience), and for my own reference ... here is a collection of Morning and Evening prayers from the Ideal Daily Missal along with some additional prayers. In this crisis of the Church, I do not think it is possible to do too much prayer, penance and have patience. P^3

Comparision of the Tridentine, Cranmer and Novus Ordo Masses

+ JMJ I downloaded the comparison that was linked in the previous article on the mass (here) . ... a very good reference! P^3 From: Whispers of Restoration (available at this link) . CHARTING LITURGICAL CHANGE Comparing the 1962 Ordinary of the Roman Mass to changes made during the Anglican Schism; Compared in turn to changes adopted in the creation of Pope Paul VI’s Mass in 1969 The chart on the reverse is a concise comparison of certain ritual differences between three historical rites for the celebration of the Catholic Mass Vetus Ordo: “Old Order,” the Roman Rite of Mass as contained in the 1962 Missal, often referred to as the “Traditional Latin Mass.”The Ordinary of this Mass is that of Pope St. Pius V (1570) following the Council of Trent (1545-63), hence the occasional moniker “Tridentine Mass.” However, Trent only consolidated and codified the Roman Rite already in use at that time; its essential form dates to Pope St. Gregory the Great (+604), in whose time the R

Catholic Culture - The Edgar Schein Model Analysis of the Pre and Post Conciliar Culture

+ JMJ So ... I was thinking ... I've used Edgar Schein's (RIP) organizational cultural model (link ) in my research ... why not apply it in a comparison between the Catholic Organizational Culture - PRE and POST Second Vatican Culture? Of course, this will be from my own perspective, I'm certain that others will think differently. 😁 Also, apologies for a rather long article. Graphic: https://mutomorro.com/edgar-scheins-culture-model/ Below is a quick mapping of the cultural factors that I could think of. Since the Church is vast and composed of millions of Souls, it is necessarily a limited cultural map. Yet, I think it will still be useful to assess what has changed since the Second Vatican Council. Additional Reading: 5 enduring management ideas from MIT Sloan’s Edgar Schein | MIT Sloan Artifacts Artifacts are tangible and observable aspects of the culture being examined. All organizations have them. Walmart has their Walmart chant, Charismatics have their spe

Is it sinful to attend the Novus Ordo (New Mass) - Is it Sinful to Not Attend the Novus Ordo on Sunday?

+ JMJ A non-SSPX Catholic is upset over the SSPX statements on not attending the Novus Ordo Missae. Ladies and gentlemen, what the SSPX, or at least its website editor, is advocating is a mortal sin against the Third Commandment. Unless the priest deviates from the language of the Sacramentary, the consecration, and thus the rest of Mass is to be considered valid. No one may elect not to attend Mass simply because abuses are occurring therein. Might I suggest that such absenteeism is its own abuse? The Third Commandment binds under mortal sin. Father So-And-So from the SSPX has no authority whatsoever to excuse attendance at Mass, be that Mass ever so unpalatable. Source:Restore DC Catholicism Well, this is interesting. First why does the SSPX issue this statement? Because it is sinful to put your faith in danger by attending a protestant service. It is likewise dangerous to put your faith in danger by attending a protestantized mass (ie the Novus Ordo Missae

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