Skip to main content

Rorate-Caeli: The Church's Newman Problem | Alternative Title: Vatican II wasn't the Big Bang!

 +

JMJ

 


Rorate has posted an article by a Mr. John Byron Kuhner  titled: “The Church’s Newman Problem” (link).  The full article is worthy of a good read as it points out something that I observed as a then young Jesuit under went something of a transformation.

A little bit of back story.  

The priest came into contact with a number of traditional Catholics (SSPX and Non-SSPX) in the years pre-dating Summorum Pontificum.  He agreed to say the Tridentine Mass for a group and the bishop got wind of it.  Within short order a message was passed from the Diocese to the Jesuit Provincial to the Priest in question.  The message ordered him to: 

  • Breaking all contact with anyone attending the SSPX.
  • Cease saying the Tridentine Mass.

Even Summorum Pontificum didn't alter the situation. Around that time I spoke with a parish priest (RIP) who was told by the Bishop that if he didn't stop lobbying ... I don't think he was saying the Mass yes ... for the Tridentine Mass, he would be sent packing back to his order.  He didn't understand why the Bishops were so afraid of the Tridentine Mass. 

Then Universae Ecclesiae was published giving the Laity the ability to bring their bishops before an Ecclesiastical Court. Within two weeks I (along with a number of other SSPX trads sprinkled throughout the room) attended a meeting with two Archbishops, eager to see how they were going to spin the SP and UE. I had heard that some faithful had contacted a canon lawyer to start proceedings, when the Bishops called the meeting. 

After the meeting the young Jesuit told a small group of us that he was now allowed to speak with us and say the Latin Mass.  Thus began a transformation.  A short while later the Diocesan Latin Mass, despite attempts to keep it quiet, had filled its little church to capacity.  The eruption of Catholicity expanded to include a Corpus Christi procession.  All this seemed to be tolerated, until shortly after a Marian Conference was held in the city. A friend attended the conference and told me that, as part of his presentation, the young Jesuit said to those assembled, "You should be worshipping this way!". Meaning the Tridentine Mass. 

For me this reflected the way the Tridentine Mass transforms those who say it.  It was also the death knell for this work. Although he claims otherwise, shortly after the Jesuit was moved out of that parish and a series of different priests were rotated in to say the Mass.

Traditiones Custodes is simply this experience at the level of the Catholic Church. The problem with the Tridentine Mass is that it makes obvious what has changed in the liturgy and that begs the question what else has changed?  

Here's some extracts from the Rorate-Caeli article:

It may not be so easy to go back to life before Summorum Pontificum, however. 

The presence of the Latin Mass, in other words, has driven interest in what went wrong with the reform.

The problem is this: to be deep in the history of the reform is to lose much of one’s affection for the New Mass.

One of the most distressing recent developments was Pope Francis’s comment in Desiderio Desideravi: “I do not see how it is possible to say that one recognizes the validity of the Council — though it amazes me that a Catholic might presume not to do so — and at the same time not accept the liturgical reform born out of Sacrosanctum Concilium.” In other words, the Pope, with a staff of liturgists and ghostwriters, is not even willing to address what his own predecessor called “the problem of the new Missal,” which, Pope Benedict stated, “lies in its abandonment of a historical process that was always continual, before and after St. Pius V” – precisely the thing which so attracted Newman to the Roman Catholic Church. Benedict continues: “I can say with certainty, based on my knowledge of the conciliar debates and my repeated reading of the speeches made by the Council Fathers, that this does not correspond to the intentions of the Second Vatican Council.”

In other words, we have a Newman problem. We have a Christian tradition broken in the name of a Via Media with immediate appeal but insufficient depth. We have people deeply versed in the history of the reform who find themselves intellectually compelled to admit that the liturgical reform was botched, and the Church lost something of importance as a consequence of it. And we have intellectuals crossing the Tiber to unite themselves with the Rome of tradition, and finding the pope on the other side, vehement in his opposition to them, and refusing even to engage with their concerns.

Looking back over the decades, I realized that the Roman strategy for the Tridentine Mass and practically all divisive Doctrines and Dogmas was revisionist.  

In summary, the Second Vatican Council is like the Big Bang.  There was nothing before it.  We have always worshipped in a manner akin to the Novus Order Missae (i.e. New Mass) and always believed according to the post Vatican II spirit.

Only, V2 wasn't the spiritual "Big Bang" that the majority of the hierarchy seems to think it was, it was more of a neutron bomb that was an attempt to kill all spiritual life while leaving the structures in place.

Fortunately, neither V2, nor the New Mass were successful.  There is still vestiges of a Catholic spiritual life in the decimated old structures of the Catholic Church and a thriving spiritual life in new structures of the Catholic Church ... of which we have to include the SSPX. Yes, you read correctly, the SSPX is a structure of the Catholic Church. The SSPX was founded canonically and is a work of the Catholic Church, even if they have attempted to disown it upon numerous occasions (in spite of what M. Voris et al think link).

P^3



Comments

Popular posts from this blog

De Veritate - St. Thomas Aquinas - What is necessary to believe explicitly?

I was recently introduced to a work of St. Thomas De Veritate ( Source ) in the course of an argument concerning the minimum content of explicit faith.  When I submitted the following quote as proof: Theological faith, that is, a supernatural faith in Revelation, is necessary, and this is an effect of grace (D 1789); nemini unquam sine ilIa contigit iustificatio (D 1793). As far as the content of this faith is concerned, according to Hebr. 11, 6, at least the existence of God and retribution in the other world must be firmly held, necessitate medii (by the necessity of means) with explicit faith. In regard to the Trinity and the Incarnation, implicit faith suffices. The supernatural faith necessary for justification is attained when God grants to the unbeliever by internal inspiration or external teaching a knowledge of the truths of Revelation, and actual grace to make the supernatural act of faith. Cf. De verite 14, I I.Ott - Fundamentals of Dogma p241 In response my opponent ...

Comparision of the Tridentine, Cranmer and Novus Ordo Masses

+ JMJ I downloaded the comparison that was linked in the previous article on the mass (here) . ... a very good reference! P^3 From: Whispers of Restoration (available at this link) . CHARTING LITURGICAL CHANGE Comparing the 1962 Ordinary of the Roman Mass to changes made during the Anglican Schism; Compared in turn to changes adopted in the creation of Pope Paul VI’s Mass in 1969 The chart on the reverse is a concise comparison of certain ritual differences between three historical rites for the celebration of the Catholic Mass Vetus Ordo: “Old Order,” the Roman Rite of Mass as contained in the 1962 Missal, often referred to as the “Traditional Latin Mass.”The Ordinary of this Mass is that of Pope St. Pius V (1570) following the Council of Trent (1545-63), hence the occasional moniker “Tridentine Mass.” However, Trent only consolidated and codified the Roman Rite already in use at that time; its essential form dates to Pope St. Gregory the Great (+604), in whose time the R...

Rome and the SSPX - Version 2026 Part 5b - How Did We Get Here??? ... A Continued Anlaysis using ChatGPT.

 + JMJ Part 5b How Did We Get Here??? So in the previous ChatGPT analysis the LLM ‘concluded’ that there was continuity in doctrine. So now we’re going to explore this element. There is some repetition but I don't have time right now to do a lot of editing.  I think instead we'll have a Part 5c where I try to pull it all together with some old fashioned human sense making. At the end point, I think the LLM collects an interesting if somewhat skewed perspective: The SSPX mapping hinges on this claim: That Vatican II affirms (at least implicitly) propositions that the Syllabus of Errors explicitly condemned. The broader Church response is: The same propositions are still rejected—but Vatican II is addressing different categories (political, pastoral, anthropological) rather than reversing doctrine. While the summary of the SSPX position seems close, that of the broader Church seems to be either an outright AI hallucination or a consensus point from the literature that it used...

News Roundup: April 30, 2026

 + JMJ I just realised that I haven't posted the latest Roundup ... and there is a lot in the roundup as the media storm around the SSPX continues! I also just noticed this article: European Conservative: Why the SSPX Bishop Decision Matters Far Beyond Church Politics (link) .  P^3 === Popes Past Present and Future Papal News and Views Cardinal Fernandez maintains that Francis is not dead- metaphorically Pope Leo XIV Reopens Amoris Laetitia File | FSSPX News Pope Leo: “We Do Not Agree with the Formalized Blessing of …Homosexual Couples” - OnePeterFive RORATE CÆLI: How Pope Leo is Reshuffling the Curia: Musical Chairs and Power Games RORATE CÆLI: A Giant Leap: The meaning of Cardinal Eijk’s Pontifical High Mass and the Rebirth of Dutch Catholicism RORATE CÆLI: A Sign of Continuity with the Pre-Francis Papacy: Pope to Wash Feet of Twelve Priests RORATE CÆLI: Vatican Blocks Continuity of Procedure of Beatification and Canonization of Argentine Bishop -- no new Satanellis Pope Leo...

Rome and the SSPX - Version 2026 Part 5 - How Did We Get Here???

 + JMJ This is the fifth in this series and I think it may require a part b to show the controversial documents and teachings of the Pope post V2. P^3 Part 5 How Did We Get Here??? Introduction My family became ‘Traditional’ in early 1980’s and I didn’t realise until years later how early we entered the Fray. So the SSPX was slightly over a decade old when we started going to Mass. That is a young organization, as someone said at the consecrations “Aren’t you a little young to be a bishop?”, the response was, “That is something that time will change.” 1970: SSPX founded with diocesan approval (Abp. Marcel Lefebvre) 1974–1976: Vatican II disputes escalate; Lefebvre suspended a divinis 1988: Illicit episcopal consecrations → excommunications declared 2000: SSPX Jubilee pilgrimage to Rome (signals openness to talks) 2009: Excommunications lifted by Pope Benedict XVI 2011–2012: Doctrinal talks with CDF collapse 2015–2017: SSPX granted faculties for confessi...