FSSPX.News: Practical Considerations on Vaccination Against COVID-19 - Part 1a - Responding to a Comment (Updated with More Comments #3)

 +

JMJ

 The 'Sender' posted two more comments - scroll to the bottom to see them.

 The following comment was submitted on the Practical Considerations article (link), but I will post it and my response here in order to anonymize the sender.

 To the sender, it's good to hear from you!

 First, here's the original post:

Hello Tradical A few questions. Can they make a vaccine without using the soul-less living cells of a murdered innocent? Another question, with the mRNA gene therapy inoculation the goal of it is to give the cell instructions to produce a spike protein. When does production stop? After reading the article below I even ask myself where is the limit to their research when using murdered innocents? When you take murdered skin and graft it on rats after you replace the rat spleen with a murdered one and infect the skin to research the spleen. Like it's the Island of Dr Moreau! Is anybody getting this, don't you see, accepting a vaccine with the knowledge that living soul-less cells were used to test it is the green light to accept other remote comprimises. How many booster shots are you going to take? Where's the limit? https://www.ncregister.com/blog/how-aborted-children-are-used There are graphic pics links in the article. God Bless 

 

Now my thoughts:

Q1: Can they make a vaccine without using the soul-less living cells of a murdered innocent? 

There is an important distinction that we need to make for our readers: The difference between "make" and "develop".  

First, pharmacological development is not my specialty, so while my understanding of the process, challenges and regulatory goes beyond that of a regular layman, I do not possess a deep expertise in the underlying science.

Develop ...

Is the process by which the organization takes a collection of technologies to understand a problem and create a solution. In this case the problem is the disease caused by the SARS-CoV-2 virus, the solution is a combination of processes and products (see the ingredients list) that successfully creates an immune response without creating a disease.

It is in testing that some vaccines acquired a moral taint due to the use of fetal cell lines (moderna,pfizer and novavax). There are other testing methods that some vaccines have employed (for example monkeys) that are not morally tainted.

Make ...

Is the process by which the organization produces the successful candidate in quantity for either regulatory trials or general use. There are several production methods that are completely untainted and the mRNA vaccines are an example of a vaccine produced in this manner.

Answer

Based on the research performed by the Lozier Institute (link), out of the dozens of vaccine candidates some are completely untainted, while others are tainted by the use of fetal cell lines during testing and others have a higher degree of taint as they employ fetal cell lines as part of the production process (full list here - link).

So, the final answer is yes - they can 'make' a vaccine without using immortal cell-lines like the HEK-293 and PER.C6. It is also possible to test vaccines without those same cell-lines. I am not aware of the rationale for selecting one testing method over another.

The problem for Canadians is that no vaccine is available that is completely untainted.  Therefore all things being equal some are arguing that Catholics have an obligation to attempt to receive the vaccine with the least degree of taint (ie. tainted only during the development process).

Q2: Another question, with the mRNA gene therapy inoculation the goal of it is to give the cell instructions to produce a spike protein. When does production stop?

This is not my area of expertise.

Based on my limited understanding, the mRNA vaccines use the cells as a production facility for the spike protein, but the spike proteins aren't a virus so it is a limited process. I am aware that viruses will eventually kill the cells they infect by causing them to rupture, but suspect that this is not the case with the mRNA vaccines. So my lay answer would be the spike proteins are produced until the cells producing the spike protein die.

I did some searching according to this article (link), mRNA lasts a few days and the spike proteins a few weeks.  I don't have time look at it any closer, but if I was still producing spike proteins, I should have a persistent immune response because my body would see that as a infection.  I don't and my vaccine induced immune response lasted 3 days, so my experience is consistent with the statement made in the above article.

Q3: After reading the article below I even ask myself where is the limit to their research when using murdered innocents? 

 As far as I can see, from a worldly perspective, as long as it is commercially viable.

S1: Is anybody getting this, don't you see, accepting a vaccine with the knowledge that living soul-less cells were used to test it is the green light to accept other remote comprimises. 

This is a statement not a question. 

This is not a compromise, it is a practice of Catholic Principles in an post-Christian world. The principle exists for a reason, it is Catholic and I am following it. I know people on both sides of the divide and I believe my friends [on both sides] who have been treating COVID-19 patients. [Some have witnessed severe adverse events, others listened to the lungs of critically ill COVID-19 patients.]  Like any other disease, it will affect people differently, but there is no way of knowing who will go to the hospital or die and who won't. This is sufficient reason for a remote cooperation with an evil that occurred decades ago.  The link to the ongoing use of fetal cell lines was also addressed by the Vatican (surprise!), but most people seem gloss over it.

I also covered this point earlier in this post (link). Delving further, as I see it there are two aspects to consider. 

First, we need to take the best moral option available to us in the face of the threat of SARS-CoV-2. In Canada the most moral option are the vaccines where the fetal cell lines were used only in testing. This is a remote cooperation that is morally the same as drinking Pepsi products that were testing using HEK-293 cells (link). However, there is no corresponding reason for using HEK-293 cells in a soft-drink vs a vaccine for an active disease. 

Second, even if the murder of babies was stopped today, companies will continue using these cell lines as long as they are commercially viable. So, instead of trying to 'change the law' based on the moral argument, which in a secular society is incredibly difficult, you have to make an economic argument.  

1. If you choose to get vaccinated select the most moral alternative (assuming the Safety and Efficacy are equivalent), that puts more funds into the company.   
2. Support a company committed to the development of moral vaccines.
3. Follow Church Teaching on the vaccines. Rome (surprise!) and the SSPX( no surprise!) got it right, so Catholic Teaching isn't disregarded by the companies.
   

Q4: How many booster shots are you going to take?

 I can't predict the future. 

Based on my understanding of how fast the virus changes I don't know if a booster will be required for those with robust immune systems.  When necessary, I will make that decision based on the scientific data and not the talking heads on YouTube.

Q5: Where's the limit? 

 Life is uncertain, according to some talking heads, I should die within 15 to 21 months. In fact, if they are right the first trial candidates should start to die off shortly.

Of course, if they doesn't happen they'll select an alternative to perpetuate their story (see cognitive dissonance article (link). 

The limits that exist are the Catholic Principles of Moral Theology. Those define the hill that I will 'die' on.

By request, I will be writing a part 2 to the original "Practical Considerations" article (link), time permitting it should be posted in a couple of weeks!

P^3

 === New Comments ===

 

Comment #2: 

From Pope JP2 Evangelium Vitae 

63. This evaluation of the morality of abortion is to be applied also to the recent forms of intervention on human embryos which, although carried out for purposes legitimate in themselves, inevitably involve the killing of those embryos. This is the case with experimentation on embryos, which is becoming increasingly widespread in the field of biomedical research and is legally permitted in some countries. Although "one must uphold as licit procedures carried out on the human embryo which respect the life and integrity of the embryo and do not involve disproportionate risks for it, but rather are directed to its healing, the improvement of its condition of health, or its individual survival",

74 it must nonetheless be stated that the use of human embryos or fetuses as an object of experimentation constitutes a crime against their dignity as human beings who have a right to the same respect owed to a child once born, just as to every person. 

75 This moral condemnation also regards procedures that exploit living human embryos and fetuses-sometimes specifically "produced" for this purpose by in vitro fertilization-either to be used as "biological material" or as providers of organs or tissue for transplants in the treatment of certain diseases. The killing of innocent human creatures, even if carried out to help others, constitutes an absolutely unacceptable act. 

See it just doesn't stop at using 50 year old soul-less living cells of a murdered baby.

Tradical Response: Following Catholic Moral Theology, there is a need to make the distinction between the act in which you are cooperating and the ones, though equally abhorrent, you are not cooperating.

The acts described are ones in which "innocent human creatures" are murdered. The act of being vaccinated is a remote cooperation in a specific act of murder.  The Fetal Cell Lines come from one of two babies.

So by receiving one of the morally tainted vaccines for COVID you are remotely cooperating in the murder of one of those two babies. Of course, I am assuming that the HEK-293 baby was not a miscarriage.

So being vaccinated is, with conditions noted, morally licit. 

 

Comment #3:  

A Moral Example 

There is an historical example of resistance to cooperation in an intrinsic evil similar to the one under consideration. In 1972 there occurred in the South American Andes the crash of a Uruguayan Airforce Fairchild FH-227 that left the survivors of 45 passengers and crew stranded at 11,000 ft. Many died in the crash and more from injuries or as a result of an avalanche that buried the plane in the days that followed. The survivors resorted to cannibalism, eating parts of the bodies of the passengers who had died in order to survive, all except one, Numa Turcatti, a 24 year old law student, graduate of the Jesuit School of the Sacred Heart in Montevideo, who chose rather to die of starvation.[7] 

The evil involved in the use of elements of the body of an aborted child is greater than the evil in which Numa Turcatti refused to engage in 1972. The deceased passengers of the crashed aircraft of whose bodies he was invited to eat had not been murdered heartlessly; they had died of natural causes. The reality that confronted him if he refused to join his fellows was not a possibility of sickness with statistically reasonable prospects of survival but certain death. His example was heroic. It ought to inspire us.

Tradical Response: Numa would have been directly committing the 'act' of cannibalism.  This example proves nothing.

Comment #4:

Found a non-talking head article. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/harvard-business-school-online-covid-19/

Tradical Response: What does this have to do with the morality of getting vaccinated?

The article discusses that Harvard is taking some of its courses back to online delivery.

"With the support of Harvard University leaders, advised by city and state public health officials, we have decided to move all first-year MBA students and some in the second year, to remote learning for the week of 9/27 to 10/03," HBS spokesperson Mark Cautela said in a statement to CBS MoneyWatch Monday.

The move comes after "a steady rise in breakthrough infections" among the business school's student population.

"Contact tracers who have worked with positive cases highlight that transmission is not occurring in classrooms or other academic settings on campus. Nor is it occurring among individuals who are masked," Cautela added.

So what?

Next time you want to send an article, please think about why you think this is important and then add that to the comment.

Comment #4 Reply Sorry, The crunch of it was that 95% of students are vaccinated. The move comes after "a steady rise in breakthrough infections" among the business school's student population. 

Tradical Response: I'm not surprised to see the breakthrough infections - it would be interesting to know at what percentage of the student body.  I checked Canada's stats and so far the breakthough infections are well within what would be expected.

 Comment #5:

 The premier of Victoria Australia Daniel Andrews has announced that by mid October if you are not vaccinated you cannot participate in the economy, workers cannot go to work. 

Absolute tyranny, diabolical tyranny! Soon enough it will be coming here. 

It's already half way here. 

You have to be an absolute idiot to agree to this kind of governing. 

... That kind of law is absolutely equivalent to REV c13v16-17. Talk about cognitive dissonance. God bless

 Tradical Response: From my perspective, agreeing with it is not the point. The point is where is the line that Catholic Obedience to the Civil Authority cannot cross?

Comment #5 Reply: So everybody should be vaxed if the government demands it? For those who believe the data they push I guess they are okay to scorn the rebels. For those who say “prove the data” I guess they can’t work or eat or live freely 

Tradical Response: Don't know where you got that from what I wrote. The principles that I am citing is that we can be vaccinated with a morally tainted vaccine under the conditions notes.  If a person is about to lose their job due to a workplace vaccine mandate, following Catholic Moral Theology they can get the vaccine with a clear conscience and still fulfill their duty of state.  

Comment #6:

 https://www.portageonline.com/local/new-restrictions-announced-targeting-southern-health-and-unvaccinated-population Australia here we come. As much as I can get angry over covidiot government puppets, still have to pray for them. What a joke. Let's kill the economy for a virus that has over a 99 percent survival rate. Morons!

  Tradical Response: Are you certain about that 99% survival rate? What do you think about about the hospitalization and ICU rate?

Comment #6 reply: Data from 1 month ago 219Million cases 4.5 Million deaths, how many people who were sick did not get tested and how many who were not sick did not get tested. According to the WHO people can have this superdooper deadly disease and not even know it, so I would say yes over 99% survival. 

Tradical Response: Ok - so you are estimating the Infection Fatality Ratio (IFR). Yep - in developed countries it is estimated to be between 0.5% and 1.0%.  I have ordered a text on epidemics and hope to have enough information to do a comparison with the 1918 pandemic.

 === Nota Bene ===

Some comments didn't seem on point so they are not included in the count.

Comment #7

 Hi Tradical Have ever heard of: Vigiaccess Type in search VIGIACCESS WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION It is Uppsala Monitoring Centre/WHO Collaborating Centre for International Drug Monitoring In it search Covid-19 vaccine When I searched it there were over 2 million ADRs (adverse drug reactions) Looks like over 200 different disorders listed God Bless Mark

 Tradical Response:  That is an interesting database (link). 

But ... there is an interesting caveat on the web site:

VigiAccess is intended as a useful starting point for people who wish to understand more about the types of potential side effects that have been reported in association with the use of medicinal products. However, VigiAccess cannot be used to infer any confirmed link between a suspected side effect and any specific medicine. See the VigiAccess FAQ for a more detailed explanation.

Yep 2 million ADRs - including dry mouth and bed rest.  Without the underlying data you can't prove anything beyond ... it has side effects. Which everyone knows.

Comment #9

 Hi Tradical 

Me for the last time. 

I had to look at myself commenting and I am not well versed with debating. 

You do a very well job debating. Although I can't agree with you on the jab. I know I will never convince you that it's evil. 

I know back 35 years in the SSPX looking at and talking about the conspiracies around the world was a pastime.

 I still see the objective conspiracies today, and they are not theories. After analyzing the puppets talking about covid and the great reset it's not hard to see the mobilization of the NWO. 

I know some can't deal with conspiracy. The devil tempted our Lord on the high mountain, pointing to all the glory of the world and said "Yours if you bow down and worship me". 

There are those that do bow down and they own the governments, finance, media etc. Their minions designed V2, put their own documents in there. Like a virus it infected the minds of the religious and layfolk. 

I'm talking too much. I pray you see the fangs behind the smile of this government. Before it's too late. Take Care. God Bless

Tradical Response:  

We obviously are a great distance apart on the topic of the vaccines and given comments above it is unlikely that we'll agree.

I have made a thorough study of this based on the Catholic Principles and so has the SSPX.

The position that the vaccines are intrinsically evil could place unsupportable burdens on people's lives, which could result in unnecessary hardships and maybe even the abandonment of the Faith. 

Union in prayer and God Bless!

P^3