Skip to main content

Universal Salvation and Bl. Pope John Paul II

Image
By
+
JMJ

 While following the comings and goings in the blogosphere (ie following the blogs that I link - but abstaining from commenting), I came across a couple of articles that I believe require some commentary - but not because of the contents but the references.

 I was reading the Remnant's latest online article  and noticed the following reference:
Eternal damnation remains a possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it.
I found the same reference in another article in reply to the 'radtrad' accusations by various online personalities.


 I have read this particular phrase many times, linked with the assertion that Pope John Paul II believed in Universal Salvation.

 Today I decided to follow the reference to explore the context. That was when I discovered that the online version of the text did not agree with that quoted above. 

 Instead it read:
Damnation remains a real possibility, but it is not granted to us, without special divine revelation, to know which human beings are effectively involved in it. 
Needless to say, I was stunned that the Remnant could have made such an error.  

 As I dug further (google was invaluable) I discovered that there are two versions of the text of the 28 July 1999 audience on the Vatican website.  One that is accessed via the main vatican.va website by navigating to the audiences of Bl. Pope John Paul II.The other which appears in some searches with the correct keywords.  

 It is the latter version that agrees with the quotations provided by the 'radtrads' of the Remnant, SSPX etc.

Version 1


Eternal damnation remains a real possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it.
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_28071999_en.html

La dannazione rimane una reale possibilità, ma non ci è dato di conoscere, senza speciale rivelazione divina, se e quali esseri umani vi siano effettivamente coinvolti.
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_28071999_it.htm

Version 2


Damnation remains a real possibility, but it is not granted to us, without special divine revelation, to know which human beings are effectively involved in it.
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_28071999_en.html

La dannazione rimane una reale possibilità, ma non ci è dato di conoscere, senza speciale rivelazione divina, quali esseri umani vi siano effettivamente coinvolti.
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_28071999_it.html

 When I noticed the difference, I was reminded that history is written by the victor.  

 I am confident that the conspiracy minded will launch into orbit over this 'discovery' drawing conclusions that are not supported by the evidence.

 What we do know is that there is a difference between the two translations.

The question that needs to be answered is whether or not it is merely a correction to bring the words into line with what Pope John Paul II actually said, or is it an attempt to scrub something from his record.

There is no point in arguing the issue. All that is required is to produce a recording of the audience, which I assume was given in Italian, and verify the actual words.

Perhaps someone will be able to do such a service in the near future.

Wishing you a Holy and Happy Lent!

Tradical
P^3
Labels:

Comments

  1. AnonymousApril 6, 2014 at 5:38 PM

    There is a revelation by the 2nd Secret of Fatima, and revelation of a dozen Saints of the Church including St Thomas Aquinas, both point to the fewness who are Saved and a LAKE of FIRE, What also is disturbing is the informed opinion of Cannon Gregory Hesse's critique on you tube, and he is not alone, on Vatican 2 and Pope Paul's new mass, an absolute must read for all Catholics and for the protestants how crazy is it to reject the Church Christ established for your Salvation and call you self one of His followers ie a Christian !!!???

    ReplyDelete
  2. TradicalJuly 18, 2014 at 10:23 PM

    I have been pondering whether or not to publish this comment for a few days.

    This author has missed a number of points and having reviewed his blog is mistaken about a number of items concerning Catholicism etc.

    One of the key points that he is missing in the above listing is John 6:51-59 (http://newadvent.org/bible/joh006.htm)

    51 I myself am the living bread that has come down from heaven. 52 If anyone eats of this bread, he shall live for ever. And now, what is this bread which I am to give? It is my flesh, given for the life of the world.

    ReplyDelete

Post a Comment

Popular posts from this blog

De Veritate - St. Thomas Aquinas - What is necessary to believe explicitly?

By
I was recently introduced to a work of St. Thomas De Veritate ( Source ) in the course of an argument concerning the minimum content of explicit faith.  When I submitted the following quote as proof: Theological faith, that is, a supernatural faith in Revelation, is necessary, and this is an effect of grace (D 1789); nemini unquam sine ilIa contigit iustificatio (D 1793). As far as the content of this faith is concerned, according to Hebr. 11, 6, at least the existence of God and retribution in the other world must be firmly held, necessitate medii (by the necessity of means) with explicit faith. In regard to the Trinity and the Incarnation, implicit faith suffices. The supernatural faith necessary for justification is attained when God grants to the unbeliever by internal inspiration or external teaching a knowledge of the truths of Revelation, and actual grace to make the supernatural act of faith. Cf. De verite 14, I I.Ott - Fundamentals of Dogma p241 In response my opponent ...
Post a Comment
Read more

Comparision of the Tridentine, Cranmer and Novus Ordo Masses

By
+ JMJ I downloaded the comparison that was linked in the previous article on the mass (here) . ... a very good reference! P^3 From: Whispers of Restoration (available at this link) . CHARTING LITURGICAL CHANGE Comparing the 1962 Ordinary of the Roman Mass to changes made during the Anglican Schism; Compared in turn to changes adopted in the creation of Pope Paul VI’s Mass in 1969 The chart on the reverse is a concise comparison of certain ritual differences between three historical rites for the celebration of the Catholic Mass Vetus Ordo: “Old Order,” the Roman Rite of Mass as contained in the 1962 Missal, often referred to as the “Traditional Latin Mass.”The Ordinary of this Mass is that of Pope St. Pius V (1570) following the Council of Trent (1545-63), hence the occasional moniker “Tridentine Mass.” However, Trent only consolidated and codified the Roman Rite already in use at that time; its essential form dates to Pope St. Gregory the Great (+604), in whose time the R...
Post a Comment
Read more

Rome and the SSPX - Version 2026 Part 5b - How Did We Get Here??? ... A Continued Anlaysis using ChatGPT.

By
 + JMJ Part 5b How Did We Get Here??? So in the previous ChatGPT analysis the LLM ‘concluded’ that there was continuity in doctrine. So now we’re going to explore this element. There is some repetition but I don't have time right now to do a lot of editing.  I think instead we'll have a Part 5c where I try to pull it all together with some old fashioned human sense making. At the end point, I think the LLM collects an interesting if somewhat skewed perspective: The SSPX mapping hinges on this claim: That Vatican II affirms (at least implicitly) propositions that the Syllabus of Errors explicitly condemned. The broader Church response is: The same propositions are still rejected—but Vatican II is addressing different categories (political, pastoral, anthropological) rather than reversing doctrine. While the summary of the SSPX position seems close, that of the broader Church seems to be either an outright AI hallucination or a consensus point from the literature that it used...
Post a Comment
Read more

News Roundup: April 30, 2026

By
 + JMJ I just realised that I haven't posted the latest Roundup ... and there is a lot in the roundup as the media storm around the SSPX continues! I also just noticed this article: European Conservative: Why the SSPX Bishop Decision Matters Far Beyond Church Politics (link) .  P^3 === Popes Past Present and Future Papal News and Views Cardinal Fernandez maintains that Francis is not dead- metaphorically Pope Leo XIV Reopens Amoris Laetitia File | FSSPX News Pope Leo: “We Do Not Agree with the Formalized Blessing of …Homosexual Couples” - OnePeterFive RORATE CÆLI: How Pope Leo is Reshuffling the Curia: Musical Chairs and Power Games RORATE CÆLI: A Giant Leap: The meaning of Cardinal Eijk’s Pontifical High Mass and the Rebirth of Dutch Catholicism RORATE CÆLI: A Sign of Continuity with the Pre-Francis Papacy: Pope to Wash Feet of Twelve Priests RORATE CÆLI: Vatican Blocks Continuity of Procedure of Beatification and Canonization of Argentine Bishop -- no new Satanellis Pope Leo...
Post a Comment
Read more

Rome and the SSPX - Version 2026 Part 5 - How Did We Get Here???

By
 + JMJ This is the fifth in this series and I think it may require a part b to show the controversial documents and teachings of the Pope post V2. P^3 Part 5 How Did We Get Here??? Introduction My family became ‘Traditional’ in early 1980’s and I didn’t realise until years later how early we entered the Fray. So the SSPX was slightly over a decade old when we started going to Mass. That is a young organization, as someone said at the consecrations “Aren’t you a little young to be a bishop?”, the response was, “That is something that time will change.” 1970: SSPX founded with diocesan approval (Abp. Marcel Lefebvre) 1974–1976: Vatican II disputes escalate; Lefebvre suspended a divinis 1988: Illicit episcopal consecrations → excommunications declared 2000: SSPX Jubilee pilgrimage to Rome (signals openness to talks) 2009: Excommunications lifted by Pope Benedict XVI 2011–2012: Doctrinal talks with CDF collapse 2015–2017: SSPX granted faculties for confessi...
Post a Comment
Read more