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JMJ
I once had an argument on Ignis Ardens with Catholicam (link: Cognitive Dissonance) that took issue with Lumen Gentium 16 - particularly the distinction that Muslims "adore the one and merciful God" and "professing to hold the faith of Abraham". Below is an annotated version of Lumen Gentium 16.
16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*)
- In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given [Tradicat: Jewish People] and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126)
- But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.
- Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128)
- Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own [Tradicat: Doctrine of Invincible Ignorance] do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*)
- Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. [Tradicat: Dogma God gives all sufficient grace for salvation.]
- Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. [Tradicat: Proto Evangelium?]
- But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129)
- Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair.
- Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.
Attached below is the discussion from 2012/2014. The full article can be seen in the link above.
The discussion segued in a number of different directions until Catholicam Replied:
You entirely miss the point. This so called council is full of heresy, ambiquity, blashphemies, and in some places outright falsehoods.Catholicam went on further to say:
As such, it cannot be a work of the Church. Just as the Novus Ordo is a foreign body injected into the life of the Church, so is this false council.
Therefore the Church must eventually condemn this council for what it is.The True Church of Christ does not "learn" lessons. She is perfect and KNOWS. What She knows, is imparted directly by Christ, Who is all truth and knowledge.
So you believe it was a true Council,You then must believe it to be a work of the Church.Which would mean that the Church can promote heresy and error.and on another thread as an example supporting his above claims:
Lumen Gentium: "But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the ONE and merciful God"
To say that the Church of Christ prays to, or adores a solitary pagan God is indeed a blasphemy against the Holy Trinity, and the First Commandment.
To counter this, I presented the following quotations:
12 Q. Who are infidels? A. Infidels are those who have not been baptized and do not believe in Jesus Christ, because they either believe in and worship false gods as idolaters do, or though admitting one true God, they do not believe in the Messiah, neither as already come in the Person of Jesus Christ, nor as to come; for instance, Mohammedans and the like. (Catechism of Pope St. Pius X)
Infidel: in ecclesiastical language those who by baptism have received faith in Jesus Christ and have pledged Him their fidelity and called the faithful, so the name infidel is given to those who have not been baptized. The term applies not only to all who are ignorant of the true God, such as pagans of various kinds, but also to those who adore Him but do not recognize Jesus Christ, as Jews, Mohammed; strictly speaking it may be used of catechumens also, though in early ages they were called Christians; for it is only through baptism that one can enter into the ranks of the faithful. (Catholic Encyclopedia)On purpose I concealed the origin of these two quotations.
Catholicam's response:
That is liberal ecumenist hogwash, straight from Vatican II. ...This is an entire waste of time.
When I revealed the source ... his reply:
I told you, I am through discussing this with you. It is an entirely fruitless effort, and a waste of time.
So - the while Catholics react strongly to Islam - it remains important to make the correct distinctions in order to "not throw the baby out with the bath water". Meaning to not make horrendous mistakes that cause people to act on prejudice instead of reason and doctrine.
P^3
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