Skip to main content

Universal Salvation and Pope John Paul II - Updated

Image
By
+
JMJ

Reblogged / Updated: I found an mistake in one of the links, which has now been rectified.

 While following the comings and goings in the blogosphere (ie following the blogs that I link - but abstaining from commenting), I came across a couple of articles that I believe require some commentary - but not because of the contents but the references.

I was reading the Remnant's latest online article  and noticed the following reference:
Eternal damnation remains a possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it.
I found the same reference in another article in reply to the 'radtrad' accusations by various online personalities.


I have read this particular phrase many times, linked with the assertion that Pope John Paul II believed in Universal Salvation.

Today I decided to follow the reference to explore the context. That was when I discovered that the online version of the text did not agree with that quoted above. 

Instead it read:
Damnation remains a real possibility, but it is not granted to us, without special divine revelation, to know which human beings are effectively involved in it. 
Needless to say, I was stunned that the Remnant could have made such an error.  

As I dug further (google was invaluable) I discovered that there are two versions of the text of the 28 July 1999 audience on the Vatican website.  One that is accessed via the main vatican.va website by navigating to the audiences of Bl. Pope John Paul II.The other which appears in some searches with the correct keywords.  

It is the latter version that agrees with the quotations provided by the 'radtrads' of the Remnant, SSPX etc.

Version 1


Eternal damnation remains a real possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it.
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_28071999_en.html

La dannazione rimane una reale possibilità, ma non ci è dato di conoscere, senza speciale rivelazione divina, se e quali esseri umani vi siano effettivamente coinvolti.
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_28071999_it.htm

Version 2


Damnation remains a real possibility, but it is not granted to us, without special divine revelation, to know which human beings are effectively involved in it.
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_28071999_en.html

La dannazione rimane una reale possibilità, ma non ci è dato di conoscere, senza speciale rivelazione divina, quali esseri umani vi siano effettivamente coinvolti.
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_28071999_it.html

When I noticed the difference, I was reminded that history is written by the victor.  

I am confident that the conspiracy minded will launch into orbit over this 'discovery' drawing conclusions that are not supported by the evidence.

What we do know is that there is a difference between the two translations.

The question that needs to be answered is whether or not it is merely a correction to bring the words into line with what Pope John Paul II actually said, or is it an attempt to scrub something from his record.

There is no point in arguing the issue. All that is required is to produce a recording of the audience, which I assume was given in Italian, and verify the actual words.

Perhaps someone will be able to do such a service in the near future.

Wishing you a Holy and Happy Lent!

Tradical
P^3

Labels

Labels:

Comments

Post a Comment

Popular posts from this blog

SSPX and the Resistance - A Comparison Of Ecclesiology

By
Shining the light of Church Teaching on the doctrinal positions of the SSPX and the Resistance. Principles are guides used to aid in decision making.  It stands to reason that bad principles will lead to bad decisions. The recent interactions between Rome and the SSPX has challenged a number of closely held cultural assumptions of people in both sides of the disagreement. This has resulted in cultural skirmishes in both Rome and the SSPX. Since it is the smaller of the two, the skirmishes have been more evident within the SSPX.  The cultural fault-line that Bishop Fellay crossed appears to be linked to two points of Catholic Doctrine: Ecclesiology and Obedience.  The cultural difference of view points is strong enough that it has resulted in the expulsion of a number of members.  It should also be noted that some other priests expelled since the beginning of the latest interactions (starting in 2000) held the same view points and have joined with the l...
8 comments
Read more

Morning and Evening and other sundry Prayers

By
+ JMJ Along the theme of P^3 (Prayer, Penance, Patience), and for my own reference ... here is a collection of Morning and Evening prayers from the Ideal Daily Missal along with some additional prayers. In this crisis of the Church, I do not think it is possible to do too much prayer, penance and have patience. P^3
Post a Comment
Read more

Church Militant TV and the SSPX - Again

By
+ JMJ The old narrative used to be that the SSPX was 'schismatic' and 'excommunicated'. Now the excommunication has been lifted for a number of years and the only ones who think it still has effect are the 'resistors'. That leaves the other opponents of the SSPX with the label 'schismatic'. Make it clear, the conservative Catholics have issues with the SSPX probably because they violate some of their assumptions about the Faith and this crisis of the Church. Church Militant TV is one of these the exists along the Catholic thought spectrum. They like the Traditional Mass but must ensure that they don't get tarred with the same 'schismatic' brush that the liberals use against the SSPX.  So what do they do, they use the same brush against the SSPX. The funny thing is that even when the Church does speak, they don't want to listen and persist in calling the SSPX 'schismatic'. Here's a transcript of the latest s...
Post a Comment
Read more

The Curious Case of Steve Skojec and the Dangers of Deep Diving into the Crisis Sub-Titled: The Failings of Others

By
 + JMJ It's been a while now since Steve Skojec sold 1P5 and abandoned the Catholic Faith. I've been a 'Trad' since 1982 and in those 40+ years I seen this death-spiral before with a similar end point. It seems that anyone who jumps into the fray unprepared for the enormous task of righting wrongs will, eventually, become discouraged by not the task but the people who surround them.   I remember when Skojec complained of the treatment his family received from a traditional priest.  This seems to have been the start of the end for him. So what can we learn from the likes of Steve Skojec, Michael Voris (maybe?), Louie Verrecchio, Gerry Matatix and other celebrity Catholics? Probably quite a lot about what not to do. First, don't burn out on the crisis?  When you burn out, on work or anything else, little things assume a more greater importance than they are due.   This is one of my 'canary in the coal mine' signals that I've been stretching myself too th...
Post a Comment
Read more

The Position of the SSPX on Canonizations by the Saint Factory

By
+ JMJ I have sometimes been criticized for including 'St' as a title for Pope John Paul II et al. I've given my reasons here  in a discussion with Alex Long. The question is one of prudence in discussions with ntCatholics and in some cases with tCatholics. In discussions with:  ntCatholics, I will use the title in order to continue the discussion and help them arrive at a realistic understanding of the crisis of the Church. tCatholics, I will use the title in order to broaden their perspective on the doctrine of dogmatic facts. This broader perspective is, in my opinion, essential maintaining a realistic understanding of the crisis of the Church. So from a doctrinal position, I have written the article Dogmatic Fact of Fancy  and includes a reference on canonizations. Now, I know the position of the SSPX is that the canonizations are doubtful (see references below) and I also know of at least one non-SSPX theologian who agrees with the level of doubt du...
Post a Comment
Read more