If Only Wishing Made It So!

JMJ

Gary Todd from Xinzheng, China, Public domain, via Wikimedia Commons

I move through a number of different Catholic 'circles'. Conservative Modern Catholic, Diocesan Latin Mass, and SSPX Traditional Catholic,

The sedevacantist issue has popped up once in a while in my 40+ years as a Traditional Catholic.

Pope Francis has, in some ways, become a unifying point. I've had to talk some Modern Catholics off the Sedevacantist ledge because Pope St. John Paul II was the only thread of Catholicism that they knew.

So here's my off the top of my head points vs sedevacantism:

When one stands on the judgment that a current Pope isn't the Vicar of Christ, then what is to stop someone else from making the same judgment on previous Pontiffs?

I know a person who started down that path with Pope B16, and found that Pope JP2 also didn't pass muster. Next fell Pope P12, B15 and so on down the line.
So where does it stop? Well with the people I know, last I heard they were home-aloners who isolated themselves from everyone they had previously known.

That a Pope loses the Papacy is a theological opinion. Not a dogma and not even doctrine.
It is Dogma that the Catholic Church will always have a Vicar of Christ

Decrees of the First Vatican Council (link) Chapter 2 Art 5: if anyone says that it is not by the institution of Christ the lord himself (that is to say, by divine law) that blessed Peter should have perpetual successors in the primacy over the whole church; or that the Roman pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy: let him be anathema.

The Pope is one half of the Dogma of the Visibility of the Catholic Church.

So without a Pope the Visibility of the Church is affected,
Consequently, to have a sedevacante for decades prompts the question of how can the Catholic Church exist for such a long duration without a core element of its visibility?

It is a Dogmatic Fact that the acceptance of a recently elected Pope means that there were no barriers or impediments to Pope Francis' elevation to the Pontificate of the Catholic Church (i.e. he is the Vicar of Christ). He is simply the latest in a long list of bad or mediocre Popes that started with Pope St. John XXIII.

So, as a Catholic, in order to not contravene a dogma or doctrine of the Catholic Church we must affirm the following:

That there will be perceptual successors in the primacy over the whole church until the end of the world. (Dogma)
The Catholic Church as a moral agreement (Bishops or Bishops + Faithful) accepted Pope Francis and those before him as Popes. Therefore they were licitly elected and served as the Vicar of Christ. (Dogmatic Fact)
The prolonged absence of a Vicar of Christ impacts the Visibility of the Catholic Church - i.e. one of the Four Marks (Dogma)

Sedevacantists offer up various arguments such as the Vicar of Christ is supposed to be the 'rule of faith' - without explaining the extents of this etc and continue to hold up a lessor doctrine or worse theory to contradict Dogmas or Doctrines of higher authority.

By their logic, there is no 'middle ground'. The Pope and V2 are either right ... or Pope Francis isn't the Pope and the Catholic Church has failed.

Whereas there is a third alternative ... that described as Recognize and Resist. Following the Catechism of the Council of Trent and other teachings - we stand ready to obey legitimate commands of the Vicar of Christ.

P^3

Church Teaching Vs SedeVacantism: Re Blog: Yes Sally, Pope Francis IS the Pope and is in great need of our prayers!; Tradicat - Sedevacantism; Tradicat - Dogmatic Facts; Sedevacantism and Heresy; Sedevacantism Kill Chain - True of False Pope; Everything You wanted to know the Infallibility of the Catholic Church but were afraid to ask about - Part 1; Everything You wanted to know the Infallibility of the Catholic Church but were afraid to ask about - Part 9; Dogmatic Fact or Fancy; Dogmatic Fact or Fancy II; Dogmatic Fact or Fancy III; Decrees of the First Vatican Council - Papal Encyclicals

Comments

Comparision of the Tridentine, Cranmer and Novus Ordo Masses

+ JMJ I downloaded the comparison that was linked in the previous article on the mass (here) . ... a very good reference! P^3 From: Whispers of Restoration (available at this link) . CHARTING LITURGICAL CHANGE Comparing the 1962 Ordinary of the Roman Mass to changes made during the Anglican Schism; Compared in turn to changes adopted in the creation of Pope Paul VI’s Mass in 1969 The chart on the reverse is a concise comparison of certain ritual differences between three historical rites for the celebration of the Catholic Mass Vetus Ordo: “Old Order,” the Roman Rite of Mass as contained in the 1962 Missal, often referred to as the “Traditional Latin Mass.”The Ordinary of this Mass is that of Pope St. Pius V (1570) following the Council of Trent (1545-63), hence the occasional moniker “Tridentine Mass.” However, Trent only consolidated and codified the Roman Rite already in use at that time; its essential form dates to Pope St. Gregory the Great (+604), in whose time the R...

SSPX and the Resistance - A Comparison Of Ecclesiology

Shining the light of Church Teaching on the doctrinal positions of the SSPX and the Resistance. Principles are guides used to aid in decision making. It stands to reason that bad principles will lead to bad decisions. The recent interactions between Rome and the SSPX has challenged a number of closely held cultural assumptions of people in both sides of the disagreement. This has resulted in cultural skirmishes in both Rome and the SSPX. Since it is the smaller of the two, the skirmishes have been more evident within the SSPX. The cultural fault-line that Bishop Fellay crossed appears to be linked to two points of Catholic Doctrine: Ecclesiology and Obedience. The cultural difference of view points is strong enough that it has resulted in the expulsion of a number of members. It should also be noted that some other priests expelled since the beginning of the latest interactions (starting in 2000) held the same view points and have joined with the l...

If Pope Francis is bad - what about Pope St. John Paul II et al?

+ JMJ So here we are on the apparent cusp of yet another post conciliar Papal canonization. This time we have Pope's John-Paul I and Paul VI canonizations to 'look forward' to. This follows, obviously, on the heels of Pope St. John Paul II's canonization? So the first question that I usually encounter is: How is it possible, keeping in mind the doctrine on infallibility of canonizations (note doctrine not dogma), that Pope St. John Paul II is a Saint? First, what does it mean??? According to the doctrine of dogmatic facts - it is the universal opinion of Theologians that canonizations are infallible. It means that they enjoy the beatific vision. ... that's it. That is the doctrine and it is at the level of universal opinion of theologians. It is called a 'dogmatic fact'. That they made mistakes is obvious. That the miracles seem to not be very miraculous is also a bit of an issue. Here's something to consider: The rush that surrou...

Spiritual Journey Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre - Extracts

+ JMJ I have posted these two chapters to provide context for the quote of: It is, therefore, a strict duty for every priest wanting to remain Catholic to separate himself from this Conciliar Church for as long as it does not rediscover the Tradition of the Church and of the Catholic Faith. P^3 Courtesy of SSPX.ca Chapter II The Perfections of God We ought to remember during this entire contemplation of God that we must apply all that is said of God to Our Lord Jesus Christ, Who is God. We cannot separate Jesus Christ from God. We cannot separate the Christian religion from Jesus Christ, Who is God, and we must affirm and believe that only the Catholic religion is the Christian religion. These affirmations have, as a result, inescapable conclusions that no ecclesiastic authority can contest: outside of Jesus Christ and the Catholic religion, that is, outsi...

Dogmas of the Catholic Faith (de fide) - Expanded Listing: Answer for Reader

+ JMJ A reader asked the following question in the 2015 version of the article on the Dogmas of the Catholic Faith (link) : 117: "In the state of fallen nature it is morally impossible for man without Supernatural Revelation, to know easily, with absolute certainty and without admixture of error, all religious and moral truths of the natural order." Where can you find this in the documents of the Church? ( Link to comment ) Here's the reference from Ott: The citation that Ott provided was Denzinger 1786 and the source document is Dogmatic Consitution Concerning the Faith from the First Vatican Council (Papal Encyclicals - link) : Chapter 2 On Revelation, Article 3: It is indeed thanks to this divine revelation , that those matters concerning God, which are not of themselves beyond the scope of human reason, can, even in the present state of the human race, be known by everyone, without difficulty, with firm certitude and with no intermingling of error. Here's ...

Tradicat

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