Skip to main content

A Look Back - June 2012

+
JMJ

In the summary of Father Themann's talk 'Resistance to What?' we find the following paragraph:
Bishop Fellay (because he is not satisfied with assurances that he can attack Vatican II) grants an interview to DICI as a test of Roman openness to attacks against Vatican II and the New Mass. Upon hearing of this interview, a very dissatisfied Cardinal Levada schedules a long meeting with Pope Benedict XVI. (source)

It was brought to my attention that the resistance faults Fr. Themann because Bishop Fellay did not criticize the Novus Ordo Missae directly in the DICI interview that he gave on June 8, 2012.

Thinking this through, it is apparent that a test of Rome's openness to attacks on V2 and the NOM does not necessarily mean that he spoke directly against both elements in the interview.


Reviewing the interview we find the following references to Vatican and the Mass (NB. not the NOM).
... What has changed is the fact that Rome no longer makes total acceptance of Vatican II a prerequisite for the canonical solution ... So the attitude of the official Church is what changed;  we did not.  We were not the ones who asked for an agreement;  the pope is the one who wants to recognize us.  ...  why this change?  We are still not in agreement doctrinally, and yet the pope wants to recognize us! ... The official authorities do not want to acknowledge the errors of the Council. ... 
Well this is definitely shows that the position of the SSPX has not altered throughout the various exchanges etc. 
... Did the novelties that were introduced during the Council start a trend of growth in the Church and an increase of vocations and religious practice?  ... If we want to make the treasure of Tradition fruitful for the good of souls, we must speak and act.  We need this twofold freedom of speech and action.  But I would mistrust a purely verbal denunciation of doctrinal errors—a denunciation that would be all the more polemical because it was only verbal ... concerning the stages in our dialogue with Rome, we must have “faith in the Traditional Mass, the Mass that demands in and of itself integrity of doctrine and of the sacraments, the assurance of all spiritual fruitfulness in the service of souls”...
Two points here ...
Novelties: Aside from the Four Points, what other Novelty is a direct result of V2? The Novus Ordo Missae which is a manifestation of the 'Spirit of the Council'.

The Traditional Mass 'demands in and of itself integrity of doctrine ...' and what is 'opposite' of the Tridentine Mass?  The Novus Ordo Missae of course.  Personally, I know that to assert that the Tridentine Mass is in anyway superior to the Novus Ordo Missae is the kiss of death for any diocesan TLM because it is seen as being divisive.

So while it may not have the character that the 'resistance' would desire, the message is unchanged.

V2, N.O.M.: Not good

P^3


References

Interview with Bishop Bernard Fellay on relations with Rome June 8, 2912
Bishop Fellay – The Church and the Society of St. Pius X – News April 10, 2014
Where do we stand with Rome? Nov 9, 2012
The SSPX Falsely Accused: Resistance to What? Regina Caeli Report

Comments

Popular posts from this blog

De Veritate - St. Thomas Aquinas - What is necessary to believe explicitly?

I was recently introduced to a work of St. Thomas De Veritate ( Source ) in the course of an argument concerning the minimum content of explicit faith.  When I submitted the following quote as proof: Theological faith, that is, a supernatural faith in Revelation, is necessary, and this is an effect of grace (D 1789); nemini unquam sine ilIa contigit iustificatio (D 1793). As far as the content of this faith is concerned, according to Hebr. 11, 6, at least the existence of God and retribution in the other world must be firmly held, necessitate medii (by the necessity of means) with explicit faith. In regard to the Trinity and the Incarnation, implicit faith suffices. The supernatural faith necessary for justification is attained when God grants to the unbeliever by internal inspiration or external teaching a knowledge of the truths of Revelation, and actual grace to make the supernatural act of faith. Cf. De verite 14, I I.Ott - Fundamentals of Dogma p241 In response my opponent ...

Comparision of the Tridentine, Cranmer and Novus Ordo Masses

+ JMJ I downloaded the comparison that was linked in the previous article on the mass (here) . ... a very good reference! P^3 From: Whispers of Restoration (available at this link) . CHARTING LITURGICAL CHANGE Comparing the 1962 Ordinary of the Roman Mass to changes made during the Anglican Schism; Compared in turn to changes adopted in the creation of Pope Paul VI’s Mass in 1969 The chart on the reverse is a concise comparison of certain ritual differences between three historical rites for the celebration of the Catholic Mass Vetus Ordo: “Old Order,” the Roman Rite of Mass as contained in the 1962 Missal, often referred to as the “Traditional Latin Mass.”The Ordinary of this Mass is that of Pope St. Pius V (1570) following the Council of Trent (1545-63), hence the occasional moniker “Tridentine Mass.” However, Trent only consolidated and codified the Roman Rite already in use at that time; its essential form dates to Pope St. Gregory the Great (+604), in whose time the R...

Rome and the SSPX - Version 2026 Part 5b - How Did We Get Here??? ... A Continued Anlaysis using ChatGPT.

 + JMJ Part 5b How Did We Get Here??? So in the previous ChatGPT analysis the LLM ‘concluded’ that there was continuity in doctrine. So now we’re going to explore this element. There is some repetition but I don't have time right now to do a lot of editing.  I think instead we'll have a Part 5c where I try to pull it all together with some old fashioned human sense making. At the end point, I think the LLM collects an interesting if somewhat skewed perspective: The SSPX mapping hinges on this claim: That Vatican II affirms (at least implicitly) propositions that the Syllabus of Errors explicitly condemned. The broader Church response is: The same propositions are still rejected—but Vatican II is addressing different categories (political, pastoral, anthropological) rather than reversing doctrine. While the summary of the SSPX position seems close, that of the broader Church seems to be either an outright AI hallucination or a consensus point from the literature that it used...

News Roundup: April 30, 2026

 + JMJ I just realised that I haven't posted the latest Roundup ... and there is a lot in the roundup as the media storm around the SSPX continues! I also just noticed this article: European Conservative: Why the SSPX Bishop Decision Matters Far Beyond Church Politics (link) .  P^3 === Popes Past Present and Future Papal News and Views Cardinal Fernandez maintains that Francis is not dead- metaphorically Pope Leo XIV Reopens Amoris Laetitia File | FSSPX News Pope Leo: “We Do Not Agree with the Formalized Blessing of …Homosexual Couples” - OnePeterFive RORATE CÆLI: How Pope Leo is Reshuffling the Curia: Musical Chairs and Power Games RORATE CÆLI: A Giant Leap: The meaning of Cardinal Eijk’s Pontifical High Mass and the Rebirth of Dutch Catholicism RORATE CÆLI: A Sign of Continuity with the Pre-Francis Papacy: Pope to Wash Feet of Twelve Priests RORATE CÆLI: Vatican Blocks Continuity of Procedure of Beatification and Canonization of Argentine Bishop -- no new Satanellis Pope Leo...

Rome and the SSPX - Version 2026 Part 5 - How Did We Get Here???

 + JMJ This is the fifth in this series and I think it may require a part b to show the controversial documents and teachings of the Pope post V2. P^3 Part 5 How Did We Get Here??? Introduction My family became ‘Traditional’ in early 1980’s and I didn’t realise until years later how early we entered the Fray. So the SSPX was slightly over a decade old when we started going to Mass. That is a young organization, as someone said at the consecrations “Aren’t you a little young to be a bishop?”, the response was, “That is something that time will change.” 1970: SSPX founded with diocesan approval (Abp. Marcel Lefebvre) 1974–1976: Vatican II disputes escalate; Lefebvre suspended a divinis 1988: Illicit episcopal consecrations → excommunications declared 2000: SSPX Jubilee pilgrimage to Rome (signals openness to talks) 2009: Excommunications lifted by Pope Benedict XVI 2011–2012: Doctrinal talks with CDF collapse 2015–2017: SSPX granted faculties for confessi...