Skip to main content

Reblog: SSPX and the Resistance - A Comparison Of Ecclesiology: Answers to Common Objections - Part 2 of 2

Image
By
+
JMJ



Based on previous discussions, I am confident that a number of people would present objections to some of the statements that I made in this article.

Here are the ones that I have anticipated and my repsonse.

Part 1

P^3



Some Common Objections

The following objections are ones that I have encountered over a number of years. Attached below are some of my thoughts / responses.

"Modern Catholics don't profess the same faith"

First,  while obscured by a lack of preaching, the de fide teachings of the Church remain unchanged by the Magisterium. So my answer to this objection is: Do you know and explicitly profess all 230+ de fide teachings of the Catholic Church?  Yes, that is correct there are only between 230 and 240 de fide teachings of the Church. If a Traditional Catholic does not explicitly know and profess submission to these truths of the faith, are they still Catholic?  Providing they have not committed the sin of schism, the answer is yes.  Because, as noted above, as long as the person implicitly believes and outwardly confesses this belief in all that the Church proposes as de fide - then they profess the faith of the Catholic Church. The same leeway is provided to "Modern Catholics".

"Modern Catholics profess heresy"

This is a variant of the first objection as it is true that some modern Catholics are material heretics as are some traditional Catholics. However, because they are baptized Catholics the Church does not consider them as outside the Church as it is assumed that they will submit to the Church when corrected. The same assumption is not valid for baptized non-Catholics.

Further on the presumption of the sin of heresy in another person:
... a person is not to be called a heretic as soon as he shall have offended in matters of faith; but he is a heretic who, having disregarded the authority of the Church, maintains impious opinions with pertinacity.

"The Hierarchy is full of Modernists, Masons and Homosexuals"

There are two ways to identify a person as a manifest heretic. The first way is by the person explicitly denying a truth of the faith and separating themselves from the Church (for example joining a protestant sect).  Anything less than a direct denial of a de fide teaching would require a  a judgement to be made on the matter of the heresy.  Only a person or persons in authority can make such a judgement.

This means that again the words of the Catechism of Trent apply:
Hence there are but three classes of persons excluded from the Church's pale: infidels, heretics and schismatics,and excommunicated persons.
Infidels are outside the Church because they never belonged to, and never knew the Church, and were never made partakers of any of her Sacraments.
Heretics and schismatics are excluded from the Church, because they have separated from her and belong to her only as deserters belong to the army from which they have deserted. It is not, however, to be denied that they are still subject to the jurisdiction of the Church, inasmuch as they may be called before her tribunals, punished and anathematised.
Finally, excommunicated persons are not members of the Church, because they have been cut off by her sentence from the number of her children and belong not to her communion until they repent. 
But with regard to the rest, however wicked and evil they may be, it is certain that they still belong to the Church: Of this the faithful are frequently to be reminded, in order to be convinced that, were even the lives of her ministers debased by crime, they are still within the Church, and therefore lose nothing of their power.
The last paragraph is most pertinent to this objection for those who would believe that traditional Catholics are the remnant of the Church and that the rest have committed apostasy in the canonical sense.

"The Conciliar Church does not have the Four Marks"

If by 'Conciliar Church" a person means that the Church united to the Pope (Francis in case there is any confusion on that point), is no longer the Church then there are serious issues.

They need to reconcile their thesis with the:
  1. Indefectibility of the Church.
  2. Teaching of the First Vatican Council concerning the role of the Vicar of Christ in establishing and maintaining the Unity of the Church.
  3. Church teachings concerning the Marks, Indefectibility and Visibility as described above.
Lastly, they need to answer this question: Where is the Church of Christ? Certainly not with any of the Sedevacantist 'Popes' (13+).

"There is no Pope because he's a heretic"

This one phrase sums up a portion of people that have been scandalized by the events in the Church since the Second Vatican Council.

There is a large spectrum of belief amongst the sedevacantists, however ultimately they come down to the thesis stated above. They believe that the Pope was a heretic either before or after he was elected.

Taking the first instance, of pre-election heresy.  The recognition of the man elected by the College of Cardinals as Pope by the Bishops in union with Rome establishes an infallible dogmatic fact that he is Pope.  ( http://tradicat.blogspot.ca/2013/05/everything-you-wanted-to-know.html )

This soundly eliminates the objections put forth of a defect in the election of a Pope due to this cause.

Taking the second instance of post-election heresy.  The first item to establish is that there is no one on earth person or institution who can render a valid judgement on a reigning Pope.

This leads to the conclusion that in order for the sedevacantist to invoke the theory of St. Robert Bellarmine, they need to demonstrate that the Pope has explicitly denied a de-fide dogma of the Church.

One caveat-emptor for would-be judges of the occupant of the Holy See, there a number of phrases that circulate in speculative theology, as well as in regular terms that may sound heretical, but are not.

Translation: Don't jump to conclusions, there is a risk that in addition to jumping to the wrong conclusion that the jumper may be jumping out of the Church at the same time as a schismatic.

P^3
Labels:

Comments

Post a Comment

Popular posts from this blog

De Veritate - St. Thomas Aquinas - What is necessary to believe explicitly?

By
I was recently introduced to a work of St. Thomas De Veritate ( Source ) in the course of an argument concerning the minimum content of explicit faith.  When I submitted the following quote as proof: Theological faith, that is, a supernatural faith in Revelation, is necessary, and this is an effect of grace (D 1789); nemini unquam sine ilIa contigit iustificatio (D 1793). As far as the content of this faith is concerned, according to Hebr. 11, 6, at least the existence of God and retribution in the other world must be firmly held, necessitate medii (by the necessity of means) with explicit faith. In regard to the Trinity and the Incarnation, implicit faith suffices. The supernatural faith necessary for justification is attained when God grants to the unbeliever by internal inspiration or external teaching a knowledge of the truths of Revelation, and actual grace to make the supernatural act of faith. Cf. De verite 14, I I.Ott - Fundamentals of Dogma p241 In response my opponent ...
Post a Comment
Read more

Comparision of the Tridentine, Cranmer and Novus Ordo Masses

By
+ JMJ I downloaded the comparison that was linked in the previous article on the mass (here) . ... a very good reference! P^3 From: Whispers of Restoration (available at this link) . CHARTING LITURGICAL CHANGE Comparing the 1962 Ordinary of the Roman Mass to changes made during the Anglican Schism; Compared in turn to changes adopted in the creation of Pope Paul VI’s Mass in 1969 The chart on the reverse is a concise comparison of certain ritual differences between three historical rites for the celebration of the Catholic Mass Vetus Ordo: “Old Order,” the Roman Rite of Mass as contained in the 1962 Missal, often referred to as the “Traditional Latin Mass.”The Ordinary of this Mass is that of Pope St. Pius V (1570) following the Council of Trent (1545-63), hence the occasional moniker “Tridentine Mass.” However, Trent only consolidated and codified the Roman Rite already in use at that time; its essential form dates to Pope St. Gregory the Great (+604), in whose time the R...
Post a Comment
Read more

Rome and the SSPX - Version 2026 Part 5b - How Did We Get Here??? ... A Continued Anlaysis using ChatGPT.

By
 + JMJ Part 5b How Did We Get Here??? So in the previous ChatGPT analysis the LLM ‘concluded’ that there was continuity in doctrine. So now we’re going to explore this element. There is some repetition but I don't have time right now to do a lot of editing.  I think instead we'll have a Part 5c where I try to pull it all together with some old fashioned human sense making. At the end point, I think the LLM collects an interesting if somewhat skewed perspective: The SSPX mapping hinges on this claim: That Vatican II affirms (at least implicitly) propositions that the Syllabus of Errors explicitly condemned. The broader Church response is: The same propositions are still rejected—but Vatican II is addressing different categories (political, pastoral, anthropological) rather than reversing doctrine. While the summary of the SSPX position seems close, that of the broader Church seems to be either an outright AI hallucination or a consensus point from the literature that it used...
Post a Comment
Read more

News Roundup: April 30, 2026

By
 + JMJ I just realised that I haven't posted the latest Roundup ... and there is a lot in the roundup as the media storm around the SSPX continues! I also just noticed this article: European Conservative: Why the SSPX Bishop Decision Matters Far Beyond Church Politics (link) .  P^3 === Popes Past Present and Future Papal News and Views Cardinal Fernandez maintains that Francis is not dead- metaphorically Pope Leo XIV Reopens Amoris Laetitia File | FSSPX News Pope Leo: “We Do Not Agree with the Formalized Blessing of …Homosexual Couples” - OnePeterFive RORATE CÆLI: How Pope Leo is Reshuffling the Curia: Musical Chairs and Power Games RORATE CÆLI: A Giant Leap: The meaning of Cardinal Eijk’s Pontifical High Mass and the Rebirth of Dutch Catholicism RORATE CÆLI: A Sign of Continuity with the Pre-Francis Papacy: Pope to Wash Feet of Twelve Priests RORATE CÆLI: Vatican Blocks Continuity of Procedure of Beatification and Canonization of Argentine Bishop -- no new Satanellis Pope Leo...
Post a Comment
Read more

Rome and the SSPX - Version 2026 Part 5 - How Did We Get Here???

By
 + JMJ This is the fifth in this series and I think it may require a part b to show the controversial documents and teachings of the Pope post V2. P^3 Part 5 How Did We Get Here??? Introduction My family became ‘Traditional’ in early 1980’s and I didn’t realise until years later how early we entered the Fray. So the SSPX was slightly over a decade old when we started going to Mass. That is a young organization, as someone said at the consecrations “Aren’t you a little young to be a bishop?”, the response was, “That is something that time will change.” 1970: SSPX founded with diocesan approval (Abp. Marcel Lefebvre) 1974–1976: Vatican II disputes escalate; Lefebvre suspended a divinis 1988: Illicit episcopal consecrations → excommunications declared 2000: SSPX Jubilee pilgrimage to Rome (signals openness to talks) 2009: Excommunications lifted by Pope Benedict XVI 2011–2012: Doctrinal talks with CDF collapse 2015–2017: SSPX granted faculties for confessi...
Post a Comment
Read more